Interviewee: Jack McKenzie Interview Date: 3 February 2005

Interviewerand Abstracter: M. Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 939

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005: States he was born JOHN HARVEY MCKENZIE in 1922 in TAPANUI HOSPITAL, which is now an unused building in the town of the same name situated about 20ks east of GREENVALE/LEITHEN DOWNS.

021: Replies that his GRANDFATHER, ANDREW MCKENZIE, first arrived in AUSTRALIA from SCOTLAND (in 1866) and settled in ADELAIDE where he married (ANNE ELIZABETH) and raised a family. So, his FATHER, he continues, was an AUSTRALIAN by birth (around 1878). In the early 1880s, the family moved to KELSO, WEST OTAGO, where in 1888, they took up a 5600-hectare property they called INVERCARRON

028: Mentions his FATHER (KENNETH) married SUSAN ELIZABETH HARVEY (in 1911) at first working as a BUTCHER in TAPANUI before they moved to GREENVALE in partnership with his BROTHER-IN-LAW (SUSAN’S BROTHER, WILLIAM) who had returned from WWI in 1919 to his family’s farm called BRAEMAR. In 1926 they moved to the present property which his MOTHER who named LEITHEN DOWNS.

052: Says the MCKENZIE family in SCOTLAND had been INNKEEPERS in the KINCARDINE PARISH of ROSS in the northwest of that country. States that still further back in history, the MCKENZIES “got themselves into all sorts of trouble” in 1715 and were decimated as a clan.

069: Comments that ANDREW MCKENZIE’S cousin became the MINISTER OF LANDS in NEW ZEALAND and was not in favour of individuals owning large tracts of land as had happened in SCOTLAND. As a result, he goes on, the present property was part of a much larger piece of land and was cut up around 1895.

087: Continues that it was called GREENVALE STATION (RUN NUMBER 175) owned by a man named LOGAN. Says there is often some confusion with another GREENVALE STATION at nearby WAIKAIA.

119: Explains that his FATHER owned a TAPANUI BUTCHERY for a few years then sold the business to FARM run country. Says they didn’t want to be on intensively worked farmland but in the end developed both BRAEMAR and LEITHEN DOWNS into more productive areas.

151: Of his MOTHER’S family, says there’s little detail about her FATHER, GEORGE HARVEY, except that he came from northern ENGLAND.

162: States that GEORGE HARVEY had a property, VIEW FARM, north of HERIOT, OTAGO, so his PARENTS would have met locally.

067: Of his MOTHER’S BROTHER, WILLIAM, says he’d been something of a property speculator and at one stage was co-owner of MT EARNSLAW STATION at LAKE WAKATIPU.

074: Two of her SISTERS, however, died relatively young from TUBERCULOSIS while a third SISTER moved to WESTERN AUSTRALIA.

096: Commenting on his MOTHER’S decision to stay on LEITHEN DOWNS following his FATHER’S death in 1932 at the age of 53, says she was a “pretty remarkable woman”. With financial help from the NATIONAL MORTGAGE COMPANY, says they were able to stay on the property where she undertook much of the manual work until JACK completed his schooling in 1938.

207: Replies that he has one SISTER (SYBIL) who is older than him and still lives in her own home on LEITHEN DOWNS. SYBIL died on June 20, 2005 shortly before this profile was completed.

224: Early education, he says, was at GREENVALE SCHOOL on LEITHEN ROAD. Says he went either by foot or on horseback.

232: Describes the GREENVALE primary as a one-teacher SCHOOL from STANDARDS ONE-SIX but there were only about 15 fifteen pupils in total. Adds that the syllabus was okay, their being taught the three ‘R’s and that everything depended on the teacher’s abilities “and I think we were very lucky, we had good teachers”.

239: One teacher he mentions was STEWART RUTHERFORD (1930-1933) who was a “jack of all trades” in that he could organise musicals, played the violin, had a motorbike, went deerstalking, swam, played football and was a good teacher.

256: Recalls that he learned to swim at SCHOOL, in the stream that runs past it. Mentions another pupil, BILL REES, who distinguished himself as a RUNNER while others made a name for themselves in the SERVICES – such as LAWRENCE KIRPATRICK of the RNZAF.

266: On the DEPRESSION years, says that at LEITHEN DOWNS, they had very little to start with, i.e., no proper roads, no electricity but they were comfortable and had plenty to eat so they didn’t notice its effects.

271: Qualifies this saying they were aware about not spending money and that many people suffered difficulties in paying their mortgages. So much so, he recalls, that at one stage a moratorium was placed on mortgages in that they couldn’t be foreclosed “I think that might have even saved us, probably saved a lot of others too”.

274: States that it must have affected his family less than others because it was towards the end of the DEPRESSION that he was sent off to WAITAKI BOYS HIGH SCHOOL in OAMARU (in 1934). Adds his MOTHER was able to send him off on a school trip to CANADA a few years later, so there was apparently enough money available.

281: Recalling his first day at WAITAKI, he admits to being quite apprehensive as he started in FORM I aged eleven years. However, he adds, some years before he’d experienced five months of a country school at PATHO, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA followed by one month at a downtown SYDNEY school.

290: But at WAITAKI BOYS (a BOARDING SCHOOL), he remembers, “you were marooned because you didn’t run home at weekends”.

296: Affirms that there were strict rules and regulations to abide by at the school adding that the RECTOR then was trying to turn WAITAKI BOYS into the “ETON of the SOUTH PACIFIC” (a well-known private school in ENGLAND).

304: Considers that the educational standards of the school were quite good. Explains he took an agricultural course, but in hindsight thinks it would have been better to have studied more academic subjects.

314: Extra-curricular interests, he says, included swimming, running and shooting (range). Says WAITAKI BOYS had good teams in contact sports such as rugby and cricket.

331: Affirms that when he came home during the school holidays he was expected to help out on the FARM. Says he didn’t have to go out digging ditches, but as he always liked working with dogs, MUSTERING stock appealed to him.

339: Recalls one of the men that helped out on the FARM was JACK BARR from HERIOT who had MUSTERED throughout the SOUTH ISLAND. He later added that BARR was generous with young dogs and in passing on his own experiences (handling stock).

343: Mentions that the agricultural work (PLOUGHING) was done by horses which were led by a hired teamster. Also recalls working the horses himself.

354: “I drove a six-horse team for six years and that was six months a year…em…you’re not going to forget that because it’s walking for one thing. Everything has to be done by hand…there’s the upkeep of the horses and the upkeep of the machinery.” Adds that food had to be provided for the horses so they grew OATS and cut CHAFF.

369: Helping in this work, he repeats, was his UNCLE WILL HARVEY who was a partner in the FARM at BRAEMAR and had some money invested in LEITHEN DOWNS. So he helped out at times after KENNETH MCKENZIE’S death, although he lived in TIMARU.

388: Replies that he left school after his 16th birthday in NOVEMBER 1938. And states that he fulfilled his MOTHER’S preference for him to stay at home while friends and peers were signed up for combat in WWII. (The authorities required one son in a farming family stay at home to ensure agricultural productivity was maintained throughout the war years.) “You had to take things as they came and I had to do as I was directed.”

413: On his HUNTING interests, says he was introduced to it very much as a way of life. On a farm, he explains, it was the usual thing to go and shoot rabbits. “My MOTHER gave me a .22(rifle) when I was ten, I think…and it cost her 10shillings as I remember.”

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002: Describes DEER as a “mystical animal” and mentions that his GRANDFATHER released the first RED DEER in the POMAHAKA area (in 1901).

019: Says he can recall his first DEER HUNTING trip which he went on with a family friend, STUART MCKENZIE. Says they went out on horseback around one of the local properties – MT WENDON owned by ALEX MCINTYRE. Describes the shooting and that they skinned the DEER and brought the VENISON home.

051: Goes on to say they went out the next day and came across a big STAG in much the same place and although it disappeared, he ran into a HIND and its CALF and shot both, which added to the household supply of VENISON. He later added that these were his first ‘kills’, during the MAY school holidays of 1938.

070: Says RIFLE-SHOOTING was one of the sports at which he excelled at school.

079: Reflects that when young men go out to get their first DEER nowadays, he hopes it’s not too easy for them because it’s an event which will not be forgotten. Adds that the skills, such as self-reliance, learned in the BACK COUNTRY are “priceless”.

092: Mentions that it’s one of the benefits of FIORDLAND in that “you get back to the things that are really natural” and that you are forced to look at the real values which he suggests are “keeping warm, I suppose, and having something to eat and keeping safe”.

106: Recalls the first time he went to FIORDLAND was in early 1937 with his SISTER, SYBIL. Later he added that they were driven to the partially completed HOMER TUNNEL by JACK MCNAMARA who’d been working at LEITHEN DOWNS and that they had camped at CASCADE CREEK. On a second visit, in 1946, they were accompanied by BETTY GREER, a friend of SYBIL’S.

130: Repeats the date again as 1946 and that they met (HUNTERS) BOB BROWN and (TED) BARLING. Recalls walking to and from the TUNNEL from MARIAN CAMP (about 5kms).

149: Replies that his first impression of FIORDLAND and the mountains was “staggering, frightening”.

156: Describes his first two HUNTING trips in FIORDLAND in 1948 as unofficial or what he thinks would now be deemed “poaching” exercises. The first trip was at EASTER, the second at the start of the winter season when they went into the MIDDLE FIORD of LAKE TE ANAU and LAKES HANKINSON and THOMPSON.

195: States that the WAPITI and the RED DEER belong to the same genetic group and originate in the temperate zones of the NORTHERN HEMISPHERE. The WAPITI, or ELK as it is also known, was decimated by settlers in NORTH AMERICA, he adds.

207: Says that generally the WAPITI is a lot larger than the RED DEER with a different colouring, WAPITI being lighter. But, he continues, it is the difference in the call that is most notable. With the RED DEER, he says, it is a guttural lion-like roar whereas the WAPITI has a high-pitched whistle.

239: Replies that these types of game animals were introduced into NEW ZEALAND with the intention of their becoming a tourist attraction. Mentions the government official responsible for organising the introduction in 1905 was T.E. DONNE.

250: Comments that not only tourists considered the WAPITI an attraction, even NEW ZEALANDERS were aware of the dearth of animals roaming the back country.

255: On the specific breed of WAPITI herd in FIORDLAND, says the jury’s still out on that one. Among the first eighteen to be landed at GEORGE SOUND in MARCH 1905 were some from the NATIONAL ZOOLIGICAL PARK in WASHINGTON sent under direct instructions from PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT.

257: Mentions going to the US in 1962 to assess those differences between the WAPITI herds there and the WAPITI and RED DEER in NEW ZEALAND. Says he teamed up with a biologist for the FISH & GAME DEPARTMENT in IDAHO who, like himself, considered there was little difference between the two breeds.

276: Considers much of the controversy surrounding the ‘purity’ of the FIORDLAND herd was allied to some people in NEW ZEALAND not accepting the fact that the WAPITI and the DEER were inter-breeding.

280: Argues also that the difference between the NEW ZEALAND herd and the AMERICAN ones could be due to very different environments. “If you feed a DEER well, he’ll respond a lot more than most animals will and so you get far better antlers on well-fed animals. And so ours deteriorated in FIORDLAND because they didn’t have enough tucker.”

288: On the other hand, he says that what the experiment proved is that WAPITI are not a threat to pasture or grazing areas as RED DEER are because of the fact that they have not spread far from FIORDLAND.

300: Mentions that the CENTENNIAL of the date on which the animals were introduced occurs on 3/MARCH/2005.

304: Explains that the eighteen animals were liberated into a wintering FIORDLAND in their summer PELAGE (coat) and were left to forage in “very difficult country”.

313: Replies that it was 1923 when the government issued a limited number of licences to SHOOT WAPITI. Adds that from the beginning there should have been stricter controls because some areas were overshot.

322: Recalls that one of the animals was shot in the EGLINTON VALLEY, but that was unusual because they did not spread far from the WAPITI COUNTRY in FIORDLAND.

331: States that he agrees with the argument of the day in the 1940s that wild browsing animals such as DEER were causing widespread damage to both pasture and conservation land. Qualifies this with regard to the WAPITI because they were slow to breed and they were only a small group in relative isolation.

344: Takes the view that CULLING of all these types of animals is necessary to avert over-population in any area.

362: Before floatplanes were introduced in the 1950s, he says, some of the wealthier sportsmen hired GUIDES. For example, the man who shot the first WAPITI TROPHY (VIVIAN DONALD) was assisted by LES MURRELL, an experienced GUIDE from MANAPOURI. Person recorded: Jack McKenzie

366: Mentions the 1949 US-led EXPEDITION to study the habits of the FIORDLAND WAPITI and a booklet about it that was later published. It was suggested then, he says, that they should use PACKHORSES until it was discovered that much of the WAPITI area was inaccessible to HORSES.

394: Replies that on a TROPHY HUNT, the idea was to only shoot the best and that each HUNTER shot just one animal.

399: Recalls one of the worst things to try to carry out of the BUSH is a set of ANTLERS. “They get caught up in everything.”

406: Apart from his HUNTING interests, he states he was a founding member of the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD which was formed in 1958. The appointments were made by the MINISTER of LANDS.

413: Considers that the people on the BOARDS should be elected rather than appointed.

417: Suggests the same should apply to the NATIONAL CONSERVATION AUTHORITY.

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004: Continuing the discussion about the FNP BOARD, he explains the PARK was not the first in NEW ZEALAND as TONGARIRO NATIONAL PARK takes that title. But he considers that FIORDLAND was an obvious area to become a NATIONAL PARK in the interests of the general public.

024: Replies the first FNP BOARD included the CHAIRMAN, STRAT BEECHMAN, who was also the COMMISSIONER of CROWN LANDS, DR LINDSAY STEWART (who was on the BOARD for 26 years), WILSON CAMPBELL (former MAYOR of GORE and co-founder of FIORDLAND TRAVEL LTD), and SYD ALLEN who, he says, shared similar interests (HUNTING and FARMING). Others included DR JENNINGS from INVERCARGILL, DR ROLAND RHODDA from DUNEDIN, OTAGO UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR (BOTANY) GEOFF BAYLISS. Additional names were PHIL DORIZAC, first CHIEF RANGER, HUGH SMITH (a senior BOARD member and senior engineer who worked on the MILFORD ROAD), JACK FITZHARRIS (former chairman) and CLIFF COSTELLO (secretary).

054: Quotes a BOARD colleague, LINDSAY STEWART, who said their role was “to soften the impact of the NATIONAL PARKS ACT (1952) on the general public” a view with which he agrees.

063: Comments that there was (and still is) a section of the ACT which called for the extermination of introduced species. “Well I detested that. I thought there was no need for it and it only put people into conflict. It’s still there and I think it should be scrubbed.” He adds that the clause is not possible to fulfil.

073: That besides, there were other matters taken up by the BOARD that he agreed with such as the CAMPAIGN to SAVE LAKE MANAPOURI (from a government proposal to raise the water level by 100 feet, thereby permanently flooding acres of low-level land. The proposal was connected with a major HYDRO POWER PROJECT at DEEP COVE, DOUBTFUL SOUND). Another issue, he says, was the proposed construction of roads through the PARK, which again brought opposition from the BOARD.

088: Replies that he understands how the creation of a NATIONAL PARK through FIORDLAND, and the subsequent restrictions imposed, was seen as a provocative move by those who’d previously had unlimited access to the area.

118: States that at first, the PARK had only one CHIEF RANGER, PHIL DORIZAC.

130: However, he admits that at first there was not much administration required in the PARK although later it was necessary to bring in other staff. But he considers that nowadays the PARK BOARD (now called the SOUTHLAND CONSERVATION BOARD) members are so much out of the public eye that one would question their existence.

191: Considers that since the first PARK BOARD was formed, there have been major changes in the PARK and in the uses made of it. Says activities they had to consider included tourism but also mining, for instance, at MT GEORGE.

216: Describes the 1958-1978 BOARD was made up of some “strong-willed” characters.

227: Recalls that in the early days some of the government agencies involved in the PARK were the FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT of LANDS & SURVEY and the WILDLIFE DIVISION of the DEPARTMENT of INTERNAL AFFAIRS. The first two, he says, seemed to be in conflict much of the time.

235: Admits that he was probably criticised by both environmentalists and HUNTERS for having a conflict of interest as a BOARD member because of his membership of the NEW ZEALAND DEERSTALKERS ASSOCIATION (NZDA). But, he says, if you want to HUNT healthy WAPITI, you have to provide good feed so it would be important to maintain a healthy park environment.

247: “If their interests are well-served, so is everyone else’s.”

253: Tape stopped and re-started.

257: Discussing the issue of WAPITI poaching, says the BOARD was concerned about HUNTERS going into the area without a HUNTING permit (and therefore affecting the outcome for the TROPHY HUNTERS) but more importantly without a LICENSE to use a rifle.

273: Tape stopped and re-started again

276: Explains that after the crisis of 1952 the NZDA persuaded the government not to send in CULLERS to the WAPITI area by proposing to conduct regular HUNTS instead, which the ASSOCIATION controlled until 1964 when hunting rules were altered so that anyone could qualify to hunt WAPITI.

288: However, that scheme broke down, he says, when the use of HELICOPTERS was implemented for DEER CULLING in the late 1960s into the early 1980s.

301: Explains why the FNP BOARD awarded a licence to only one HELICOPTER company to conduct DEER CULLING from the air (the company was ALPINE HELICOPTERS). Says the decision was made on the same principal that if someone wants a house built, they would choose one reliable builder.

307: In hindsight, he says, none of the BOARD members foresaw the way the DEER INDUSTRY rapidly developed and how valuable it was. “There was a lot more money in the whole thing, I think, than most of us realised.”

339: Considers that if they had been able to use that method for CULLING DEER years sooner then the NEW ZEALAND environment would have been quite different. “If you could’ve used HELICOPTERS back in the 30s you could’ve aimed for high quality HERDS and probably could’ve achieved it.”

355: Mentions the MONK report on DEER CULLING which he says suggests that if it had never been implemented it would have resulted in the DEER being in very poor condition in a poor environment.

362: Says he sees the same type of thing happening on a FARM: if land is overgrazed the animals don’t look well, so the situation has to be reversed as soon as possible and the animals taken off the damaged land. Similarly with the DEER in the wild, there has to be a certain level of maintenance, he adds.

371: Replies that attempts to relocate the WAPITI were undertaken to make way for introduced TAKAHE (a native bird at risk of extinction). But he later explained in detail that it was never a workable plan.

[See note below:

The “relocation” exercise

Because of the perceived needs of the TAKAHE and the danger of crossbreeding between WAPITI and RED DEER, it was decided by the government of the day that the WAPITI would be captured. The females would be bred with WAPITI BULLS for several generations. Then the resulting improved WAPITI would be relocated either back into FIORDLAND or to an area outside the PARK. As I had forecast, the idea was a disaster. No place was found for the upgraded WAPITI And of the 58 TAKAHE released into the area vacated by the WAPITI, most perished and the project was abandoned. A small part of the original relocation herd is being farmed under the auspices of the FIORDLAND WAPITI FOUNDATION. It is hoped that a more enlightened administration will return the herd to the area from which its forebears were removed. J McK]

[Jack also said that the ‘relocated’ WAPITI were captured by a consortium of three helicopter crew (JIM KANE, RICHARD HAYES and DICK DEAKER) and a DEER farmer (EVAN MEREDITH).]

412: Suggests HUNTING in the WAPITI area provided two advantages for the sportsman – HUNTING a unique animal (1) in “one of the most spectacularly beautiful places on earth”. (2)

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016: “I’d like to think that generations in future could enjoy (WAPITI HUNTING) the same as we’d done in the early days,” he says pointing to the WAPITI TROPHY hanging above his chair which he describes as a HYBRID animal born in FIORDLAND about 1940.

032: Considers that the present statute in the NATIONAL PARKS ACT requiring that all introduced animals be exterminated could be changed, especially in light of the fact that other policies have been altered. He refers particularly to the modification of a ban on DOGS being allowed within the PARK boundaries.

044: Highlights a survey carried out by WAYNE FRASER from LANDCARE RESEARCH who canvassed about 3,000 people in a questionnaire about wild animals such as DEER being in NEW ZEALAND. 94% of the 1500 respondents, he says, were in favour of retaining the DEER under a managed system.

065: Affirms he is a member of the FIORDLAND WAPITI FOUNDATION which, he says, was founded in 1994, led by RON PEACOCK and BRUCE NEWLAND. Says they decided to continue with shelved government plans to improve the quality of the WAPITI herd and then return BULLS to the PARK where they could be legally stalked by TROPHY HUNTERS.

098: Says he supported the move primarily because it was an effort to preserve the WAPITI resource. Adds that a similar FOUNDATION exists in the UNITED STATES.

117: Believes there will always be DEER running wild in the PARK despite intense efforts to eradicate all such species.

120: Mentions that while he has stocked FARM-BRED DEER at LEITHEN DOWNS, he aims to opt out of that side of STOCK MANAGEMENT.

131: Considers there is little difference in the behaviour of the WILD and FARMED DEER, especially if they get “spooked” (frightened).

139: Replies that he took over the running of LEITHEN DOWNS when he left SCHOOL in 1938 and gradually assumed greater responsibility for it. Recalls that at first the main task was to ensure its survival as the property had become quite run down (due to labour shortages).

149: States he tried to increase production by improving the pasture and turning much of what was manuka scrub area into grazing pasture. The property covers 3,000 acres and he says when he started about 440 acres had been ploughed and now about 2,000 acres had been developed.

161: Considers that nowadays it is much easier to cultivate land because of the equipment and machinery available.

168: Adds that he changed the type of STOCK held on the property which at first had been virtually just ROMNEY SHEEP and now there was more of a mix including a PERENDALE/ROMNEY cross.

186: Praises his SONS, who now run the divided property, for their abilities in STOCK management.

190: Staying on the theme of FAMILY, replies that his WIFE, GLADYS’ maiden name was MCBRIDE – a FARMING family in CHARLTON, south of GORE.

194: Explains that in a way his DEER interest helped bring them together and after courting for a few months in 1959, they MARRIED in 1960 (9 JANUARY).

204: Replies that GLADYS may be more tolerant (of him) than other women and that they shared similar interests as she liked TRAMPING and the OUTDOORS, and photography.

213: Recalls he approached her FATHER to ask his permission to marry GLADYS and comments that they didn’t live together beforehand (as is common in 2005).

220: States the WEDDING ceremony was at ST ANDREW’S PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH in GORE and that they went to the WEST COAST and FIORDLAND for their honeymoon where they did some photography.

233: Says her occupation had been a NURSE but she gave it up after they were MARRIED. In those days, he adds, there were few money worries and soon enough they had CHILDREN (three BOYS and one GIRL) so she had her work cut out for her at home.

241: Gives the CHILDREN’S names from eldest down as ANDREW, NICHOLAS, JESSICA and MATTHEW. The latter, he adds, has enjoyed HUNTING from an early age and illustrates this with a tale.

254: The two older SONS, he says, virtually own the FARM operating under a TRUST which is still being structured. Essentially the property is being divided in two with overall ownership under JACK and GLADYS and SYBIL, but the separate halves being run and managed by each of the two SONS.

269: Replies that he is pleased they have taken an interest in FARMING the property and admits that they will probably introduce different methods than ones he used in the past.

286: Returning to FIORDLAND, mentions that the FAMILY still owns a CRIB in TE ANAU and that he still feels the thrill of going into the WAPITI area of the PARK. Mentions that he has drawn a BLOCK for the approaching annual HUNT.

297: However, these days he is not interested in SHOOTING a WAPITI TROPHY because he would prefer to think they were still roaming the PARK, but he might try for a RED DEER.

306: While he learned his HUNTING skills by experience, he concedes that if it hadn’t been for his mates, he would probably not have the TROPHIES that are on display in his living room. His mates included DOUG HASTIE, JOCK MCQUEEN and MERVYN LADBROOK: “good HUNTERS, good SHOTS, good companions”.

321: “There was a whole line of them, outstanding men I’d’ve said – and some women – that, eh, they… I think all made it sort of worthwhile.”

322: Replies that the government’s eradication policy will not bring the animal numbers in the PARK to zero. Person recorded: Jack McKenzie

358: As he prepares for the autumn season, he says what he is most looking forward to is hearing the WAPITI “bugle”. “It’s a great sound…away in the distance; this high-pitched bugle is terrific…as they say it’s one of the most thrilling sounds in nature.”

370: As a last comment he says: “I’d like to think that young people…could enjoy the place the same as we had done and pit their physique against the country, eh, their cunning against the animals, em, and I think that they’d be better people for it.”

Interview ends

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