Person recorded: John Russell Francis von Tunzelman

Interview date: 10 March 2004

Interviewer and abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 393

Tape 1 Side A

003: Opens giving his full name: JOHN RUSSELL FRANCIS VON TUNZELMAN and that his place of birth was OTAUTAU in 1936.

016: States the VON TUNZELMAN’S originated in ESTONIA and were landowners of an estate called ADLERFLUG: roughly translated as Eagleflight. It was on an island known then as OESEL but is now called SARENUM in the BALTIC SEA.

032: Affirms that his descendents can be traced back to the 1200s, adding that other extended family members are researching further information.

063: Remembers a cousin visiting NEW ZEALAND a few years ago and showing slides of the old estate buildings.

077: Responding to question on the family’s links with the CZAR of RUSSIA, ALEXANDER I, says there was a close relationship there and that the CZAR wanted the family’s boys to be taught at an elite Russian military academy and the girls to be given a formal education with a view to being ladies-in-waiting for the CZARINA.

087: However, he says that their father was killed – (he was a Colonel in the RUSSIAN Imperial Army and was robbed and murdered while travelling). Before he died, the family had been expelled from RUSSIA and was living in EUROPE because their mother, who was a pacifist, didn’t want her sons to become soldiers. By this time CZAR NICHOLAS I was in power and was so incensed by her decision that he banished the VON TUNZELMANS from the country and confiscated their estates.

101: Says they first reached SWITZERLAND and ended up in ENGLAND where the sons were educated. Adds that as a result, one of the sons (his GREAT GRANDFATHER) JOHN EMANUEL, graduated from university (with an MA in ENGLISH).

128: Agrees that his GREAT GRANDFATHER’S brother, NICHOLAS, was the godson of CZAR NICHOLAS.

135: Believes NICHOLAS had a flair for FARMING, which would have led him to form an association with WILLIAM REES. Both men, with MAORI guides, conducted an expedition through the ORETI VALLEY to the WAKATIPU area and down the river now known as the VON RIVER (it being named after NICHOLAS). 143: Adds that when they got to the shores of the lake, they decided to take up land around it. (1850s/60s).

150: Says three of the family came out to NEW ZEALAND; ELISE, JOHN E. and NICHOLAS.

163: States that (WILLIAM) REES ended up with the eastern shoreline areas of LAKE WAKATIPU and NICHOLAS VT with the western areas. Adds that his attempts at FARMING the land were thwarted by problems such as scabied sheep and plagues of rabbits.

186: Concentrating on his GREAT GRANDFATHER, JOHN EMANUEL, affirms that he moved from NELSON to SOUTHLAND. Adds that he was the first SCHOOLTEACHER at a MAORI settlement on the shoreline of PATERSON’S INLET, known as THE NECK.

194: Considers JOHN EMANUAL must have had a good disposition because his nickname was GENTLEMAN JOHN and he was held in high regard by people on the island. Regrets not having met him.

200: Says his GREAT GRANDFATHER had seven children, including his (GRANDFATHER) ALEXANDER FRANCIS, JOHN, LUCY who married and had one DAUGHTER, and IVY, who never married.

209: Recalls spending a lot of time in his GRANDFATHER’S company. Says he was quite an adventurous guy in his youth and would relate some great stories while lying on the couch at his home in INVERCARGILL.

233: Describes being particularly interested in the old whaling days in the early 1900s. One story highlights his GRANDFATHER’S pioneering activities. During whaling expedition ALEXANDER was the first person to set foot on the actual land/rocks of ANTARCTICA. It was more by carrying out orders than by actual intent.

273: Many years later, he says, the event was officially researched and as a result the landing site was named VON TUNZELMAN’S POINT and it’s on the CAPE ADARE PENINSULA.

280: Says ALEXANDER spent some time in VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA, bush clearing. And also in TASMANIA. But he returned to INVERCARGILL, married and had a family.

290: Adds that ALEXANDER was an outdoorsman, going hunting and fishing in the more remote hinterland of SOUTHLAND, STEWART ISLAND and FIORDLAND.

297: Refers back to the whaling stories and how his grandfather described standing on the whale carcasses with big flanking knives and cutting the blubber off as they slowly rotated in the swell of the tide. And the sharks coming up and taking bites. And all the blood in the water.

308: Says ALEXANDER married ELIZABETH ADCOCK from INVERCARGILL (granddaughter of the once well-known INVERCARGILL resident, WYALD STARK) They had three boys and two girls. RON, ISABEL, JACK (his FATHER), GILBERT and FAY. Adds that his FATHER was named WILLIAM JOHN, but was always knows as JACK.

319: States his FATHER’S DOB: 05/October/1911, in INVERCARGILL. He died on 06/February/1980.

325: Explains that ALEXANDER did a lot of boatbuilding, small vessels. He was contracted by the local government to build its boats, mainly clinker-built dinghies of white pine. Some frames were made from wood bends retrieved from the bush.

339: Recalls the biggest boat his GRANDFATHER made was an 18ft double-ender with a centre board. Says they launched it on the ORETI RIVER, rowed it out to the estuary and sailed across to STEWART ISLAND.

350: Says he was about five years old at the time, and laughs at how there were no life-jackets in those days either.

359: Reflects on his GRANDFATHER being a very practical person, able to turn his hand to anything. And was able to play musical instruments, including the flute.

374: Responding to question says that his GREAT-AUNT, ELISE nursed with FLORENCE NIGHTINGALE in the CRIMEAN WAR. After emigrating to NEW ZEALAND, she maintained correspondence with FLORENCE. And a few years ago, the NZ WOMEN’S WEEKLY published some of the letters from FLORENCE to ELISE.

381: Mentions that since then some family members have found some of the letters from ELISE to FLORENCE.

391: Moving on to his FATHER, says he went to school in INVERCARGILL, SOUTHLAND BOYS HIGH. At a young age, he joined the NZ NAVY where he trained to become a wireless operator. During dispatches around the PACIFIC, he grew fond of FIJI and its people.

402: Continuing, says his FATHER then stayed and worked in SUVA for the local newspaper before returning to NZ and marrying his MOTHER. Says he was a printer and recalls watching him working the presses when he was at the OTAUTAU STANDARD.

415: Says his father must have worked there a few years before shifting the family to DUNEDIN.

Tape 1 Side A ends

Tape 1 Side B starts

004: Discussion focuses on his own younger life. Says he started school in OTAUTAU IN 1941. But after a few months the family shifted to DUNEDIN and he enrolled at ST.CLAIR SCHOOL.

015: Recalls his MOTHER becoming ill with tuberculosis and being admitted to a sanitarium for a couple of years. The children, he and three SISTERS, were farmed out meantime. So he went to live with his AUNT MAY and her family in FAIRFAX and then joined two sisters who were being looked after by AUNT ISABEL in INVERCARGILL.

047: Mentions that at some stage when the children were young, their FATHER decided to change the family name, explaining that he and his other siblings had encountered a lot of difficulties (prejudice) during WWI with their GERMANIC name. He decided his children should not have to suffer the same problems and changed the family name to SMITH.

062: Continues that his FATHER had changed his name by deed poll and thought that by so doing, automatically the children’s names would also be changed.

083: Says he hated the name SMITH and relates a story about how people would question his being called JOHN SMITH (with its connotations as an alias to avoid detection).

110: Explains that in 1962, not long before he got married, he decided to change his name back to VON TUNZELMAN. During the legal process, it was discovered that his name had not been changed. All the time his legal surname was the one given at birth. Apparently everyone who wants to change their name legally has to do so by deed poll, whether adult or child.

135: So, says he signed a typed declaration declaring that from then on he was officially re-adopting his surname.

154: In response to question, says that people who live around the WAKATIPU area sometimes ask whether he’s related to the pioneering VON TUNZELMAN whose name lives on in the VON RIVER and MT NICHOLAS.

158: Mentions that older people in GLENORCHY still talk about HERBIE VON TUNZELMAN who lived in the area.

170: Admits that as he gets older, he’s more interested in his extended family’s activities in the area and has read up on some of the background.

183: Tape stopped and started for break.

190: Referring back to OTAUTAU, has early memories of going to the primary school. Says his first school teacher, was a MISS DONHAM who had taught his MOTHER, a former pupil at the same school.

202: States his MOTHER’S name was ELIZABETH MABEL NORMAN and that her family had farms in the surrounding area.

206: Describes his GRANDFATHER, THOMAS NORMAN, was a lovely old guy. He had a JERSEY COW stud farm and ended up being a judge of this breed.

216: Mentions it may have been a mutual interest in motorcycling that brought his PARENTS together. Says his MOTHER was only about 15 when they married, because she had her first child (his elder SISTER) at just 16 years old.

225: Adds that his MOTHER only recently died (on 02/FEBRUARY/2004) in AUSTRALIA. Says she was a real character.

228: Recalls his parents separating around 1950 and that his MOTHER went to TAURANGA with his SISTERS, while he stayed on at WAITATI.

238: Says he left school and got a job on a farm. His FATHER was working as an attendant at a psychiatric hospital (CHERRY FARM) and was doing night duty. Then his FATHER got him a job on a farm attached to the hospital and he worked there for eight years.

248: Responding to question, refers back to OTAUTAU in the 30s/40s saying it was quite a busy town then. Says it was the main centre in that part of WESTERN SOUTHLAND. The principal industries were FARMING and SAWMILLING.

253: Adds the town supported its own newspaper, its own policeman, dentist, doctor, maternity hospital, lots of shops and banks.

265: Admits the shift to DUNEDIN was quite daunting for a young child, especially going from a classroom of a dozen children to one with thirty.

281: States he’s the second oldest of his siblings. BABS is the eldest, after him there’s PAM and the youngest is MARIE.

296: Having said he doesn’t see a lot of his SISTERS, recalls that when they were younger he was close to PAM perhaps because they were only eighteen months apart. They would go rabbiting together.

305: Repeats that he went to ST. CLAIR PRIMARY, then FAIRFAX, then NORTH SCHOOL, INVERCARGILL.

314: Says the family moved to WAITATI so went there to the local school then on to KING EDWARD TECHNICAL COLLEGE in DUNEDIN for two years before starting the farm work at the age of fifteen in NOVEMBER 1951.

329: Remembers the first wage on the private farm he worked at: it was two pounds 18 shillings a week, which was the award wage.

336: States that he worked on the farm at WAITATI then CHERRY FARM, WAIKOUATI, between 1951 and 1959 when he started work with the FOREST SERVICE as a DEER HUNTER.

338: Mentions that he was experienced in hunting, particularly pig hunting both on the farms and during holidays. “I did a lot of pig hunting… I was mad on it.”

359: Says he started DEER HUNTING when he got his first motorbike and could go out to areas inhabited by the DEER. Says it’s a different type of hunting, requiring stalking skills to get close enough to shoot them.

367: Still remembers the first time he shot a deer. “It was the thrill, really elated, really achieved something. It was a real first for me and I remember it like it happened yesterday.”

370: Thinks he was probably about seventeen years old.

376: With DEER STALKING says you hunt early morning and late evening which are the times the DEER come out from the forest cover to feed. Hopefully, he says, you find signs of deer, make a quiet approach to spot the animals, move closer still and try and make a good kill.

390: After talking about taking pig hunting holidays in KAIKOURA with some friends, he mentions DEER HUNTING in the WILKIN VALLEY off the MAKARORA RIVER.

400: It was after meeting up with MAX KERSHAW, the senior ranger for the FOREST SERVICE’S noxious animals division, that he was offered the job of DEER SHOOTING for the service in 1959.

419: Begins describing the job but tape runs out.

Tape 1 Side B ends

Tape 2 Side A begins

005: Continues to describe FOREST SERVICE job, saying once the DEER was shot, you would cut the tail off, plus a strip of skin along the back of it (to destroy the skin so that you couldn’t be paid twice by selling it on). At month’s end, the supervisor would turn up to count the collection of tails, then destroy them, drop off fresh provisions and any mail before heading off again.

021: Says he worked a couple of years just straight shooting and then did several other jobs such as noxious animals poisoning, some track maintenance in the winter.

040: Says when he started, there’d been two hunters ahead of him in HUNTER VALLEY. They’d been inexperienced and walked off the job, perhaps unable to work in such isolated conditions. The main guy who worked the block was ALAN HUNTER who he says was a real loner, that he hardly ever saw him during the whole season.

063: Explains that to do the job, you had to be independent and be able to look after yourself as well as spending as much time as possible being productive as a hunter in what was really quite a dangerous environment. Springtime with the snowmelt was usually the most hazardous when the rivers swelled.

090: Admits that sometimes the bush country would make re-tracing his steps somewhat confusing.

100: Says his main work area was the HUNTER VALLEY. He and ALAN HUNTER had the top half of the valley, about 20 miles long plus its side creeks, each being about 12-15 miles long and rising to seven or eight thousand feet.

111: Describes the working environment from valley floors up to permanent ice fields, hunting for CHAMOIS and THAR, with lots of tussock grass above the forest. Considers it amazing that few CULLERS didn’t have accidents - while they all got frights, they were also very careful because it would be weeks before anyone knew they were missing

121: Says they covered themselves to a degree by always leaving a note on the hut table or door before setting out on a day’s HUNT saying where they were going.

135: Replying to question about the isolation, says his thoughts focused on getting the next DEER, which he eventually saw as pound notes.

160: Says his diet consisted of “lots and lots of venison, the odd CANADA goose, pounds of rice, dried apricot, tea.” There was also flour and yeast to bake bread which they all had to learn to do.

177: Explains that in those days there were no plastic bags, sugar came in a Hessian sack, flour in cotton bags, so they had to be hanging from the rafters to avoid being contaminated by foraging possums, rats or mice.

191: “It was a wonderful way of life. I’ve never spoken to anyone that spent any time on the job thinks about it as anything but the best days of their lives.”

195: Adds that it taught self-reliance, explaining that on very wet days, you could go into the bush, find a big old tree, seek out the sheltered side where there was some dry bark, get a fire going (with wax matches), and be able to put wet wood on and keep it going. Nowadays, he says, if you asked someone to light a fire in a downpour they’d say it was impossible.

210: Talks about ‘fly-camping’, using a piece of waterproof material. He would just rig it up to make a temporary shelter.

217: Describes dry feet as a luxury that lasted for the first hundred yards after you walked away from your hut in the morning.

222: Says that in a good block, you could expect to bring in about 1000 or 1200 TAILS. In latter years, when the DEER were becoming increasingly difficult to find, maybe only 300. But the contract price went up as the numbers depleted.

226: When he started, he says, the price was a pound a tail.

236: At the end of the season, he admits, it was difficult talking with people for long as conversational skills were reduced. There was also little resistance to colds and flu. And that being driven in a car going at only 30mph seemed frightening at first before you got used to it again.

250: Describes being aware of his physical fitness compared with his mates. After so many months working in the bush, there was a lot of muscle because all your work time was spent walking and climbing the mountains.

276: Mentions that he later became a FIELD OFFICER covering the WAPITI area, NORTH OTAGO, the CATLINS, WESTERN SOUTHLAND.

280: Mentions getting MARRIED (in 1963) and leaving the FOREST SERVICE to work for the OTAGO CATCHMENT BOARD, as a SOIL CONSERVATION TECHNICIAN, involving land survey work.

290: Responding to question agrees that the kind of DEER HUNTING work he did was a single person’s job. It was a seasonal job, starting in October and ending around April, and you didn’t come out of the hunting block for holidays or days off. Nowadays, it’s totally different, with ten days on and so many days off and not working on your own. Plus, radio equipment and other things that were unheard of in the 50s.

309: Interview closes.

Interview session 2 (17 March 2004) begins.

317: Opens on topic of his MARRIAGE to ALOMA BENNETT in 1963. Says she had been working as a nurse at CHERRY FARM close to where he lived at WAIKOUATI. (Some mic rumbling and fumbling here).

325: Says he’d applied for two NATIONAL PARK BOARD jobs; one in TE ANAU, the other in CLIFDEN. He didn’t get the job but RAY WILLETT and NEIL SHEPHERD did.

347: But within a year, both men had left due to disappointment. So he was offered the TE ANAU job by the chief ranger, MURRAY SCHOFIELD. By then, he was working back at the FOREST SERVICE as a FIELD OFFICER looking after the HUNTING operations in the EYRE MOUNTAINS north of MOSSBURN and the TAKITIMUS southwest of it.

359: Says he and ALOMA lived in the town for about three years where ALOMA worked in one of the local grocery stores which was below their house. Describes it as a lovely town to live in; probably bigger then than now. The transport was a bigger operation; there was a serpentine works, a venison factory starting up, three service stations, two quite significant stores and a butcher’s shop.

367: Now, he says, there’s only one service station, one garage, and one grocer’s shop.

371: Recalls the move to TE ANAU arose because he was doing more work in the area for the NPB following the appointment of MAX EVANS as CHIEF RANGER for TE ANAU.

386: Mentions that he by this time had gained a lot of experience in the outdoors and had also done quite a bit of private hunting in the FIORDLAND area on places such as the TE ANAU DOWNS STATION.

390: Remembers it was in the days when JOHN CHARTRES (GRANDFATHER of the present owner PETER CHARTRES) was still running the property and specifically recalls the day that CATTLE were taken out of the EGLINTON VALLEY for the last time, around 1951/52.

415: Tape 2 Side A ends

Tape 2 Side B starts

003: Opens with his description of long working hours and being away from home for long spells.

013: States the date of his marriage to ALOMA was 30/03/1963. Says he’d just completed four months of survey work in FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK with another guy called MAX EVANS.

026: Considers it was incredible they survived that spell in the PARK because some of their food supplies didn’t arrive, nor did an emergency communications link. Says they were living off the land: VENISON and FISH. And everything was cooked on open fires, since they had no primus.

040: Says they got used to living in tiny tents, virtually rubbing shoulders with one another. Recalls short-sighted MAX getting around with only one lens in his specs.

058: Remembers he came out of the bush only about three days before the wedding. The ceremony was held in KNOX CHURCH, DUNEDIN.

070: Tells how ALOMA had been left to organise everything beforehand. A couple of days before the wedding, she said she couldn’t remember whether she’d told the celebrant she was marrying JOHN SMITH or JOHN VON TUNZELMAN. (He’d reverted to his birth name only months before). And she also couldn’t remember what time the ceremony was being held. So, very embarrassed, she had to ring up and check with the deaconess exactly who she was marrying and at what time.

107: Says they were keen to live in TE ANAU, so in 1966 they moved into the FOREST SERVICE house and six years later shifted to their own place in GUNN STREET.

122: Explains his work expanded to SNOWDON FOREST and PYKE FOREST north of MILFORD SOUND. They were track cutting more than HUNTING mainly because the latter was being taken over by the helicopters.

140: Replies that the HUNTERS were hired on contract and that in the earlier years, on the TAKITIMUS, he had six working for him during the season. Over time the numbers decreased and by the mid-80s fell to just one, TONY HAZLEDEAN, a hunter/trackman who worked the entire district.

158: Mentions one significant change in the work he was doing as being a REVEGETATION PROGRAMME in the TAKITIMUS which later spread to the EYRE MOUNTAINS. It involved planting PINUS MUGO trees on the eroded slopes of CHEVIOT DOWNS STATION.

190: Admits that the planted trees were not native to the area and nowadays some people are lobbying for the removal of some of those trees, particularly the PINUS CONTORTA which spreads prolifically.

207: States that the slopes of the TAKITIMUS near CHEVIOT DOWNS had been subjected to extensive burning in the days of early EUROPEAN occupation. Mentions that one of the runholders had described being able to lead a horse round one face of the mountains when he was a young musterer.

213: Explains there’s no way he could do that now because of the accelerated erosion that has cut huge gutters into the slopes of the mountains so that you can’t even get across the face on foot.

215: Tape stopped to re-position mic then re-started.

225: Moving on to discuss the era of DEER HUNTING by HELICOPTER, says that at first, the aircraft didn’t work areas which were being HUNTED by traditional means because it wouldn’t have been fair to poach on the contract workers livelihood.

232: And at first, because there were so many DEER, the HELICOPTER operators weren’t interested in going into areas already worked by foot.

237: Explains the FOREST SERVICE actively promoted some areas for the HELICOPTERS.

247: Agrees that this period of DEER MEATHUNTING was intensive, with TIM WALLIS’ ALPINE HELICOPTERS having three vessels in the SOUNDS as drop-off points. They were the RANGANUI, KOTANUI and the HOTANUI. All were carcass carriers with the latter a freezer-hold ship able to hold a thousand at one time.

260: Argues that although it seemed a good idea to have the HOTANUI’s capability at first, it turned out not so useful because the processing factory at MOSSBURN was put under enormous pressure when a thousand carcasses were delivered. Because they would all defrost at once they had to be packed up in one go.

270: More successful, he says, was the RANGANUI bringing in three to four hundred carcasses at regular intervals.

276: Mentions that on the HOTANUI, which had a big crew, there would be problems when the weather packed up. The ship’s crew wouldn’t touch DEER and the DEER HANDLERS weren’t allowed to work on the ship (engineering or navigation) so there were union conflicts. Says when bad weather struck, all these people were together with little to do but stew over their conflicts.

295: Responding to question about the increasingly tense conflict between the HELICOPTER operators says the FOREST SERVICE didn’t control licences within the NATIONAL PARK, although it did oversee licensing outside the PARK.

300: Says the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD issued permits to hunters and they only allowed HUNTING rights by chopper to ALPINE HELICOPTERS. So they and their derivatives were the only operators in the PARK bounds for quite a number of years.

306: States that a lot of problems arose from that, including political conflicts for those trying to get other companies in.

309: Responding to question says the PARK BOARD always claimed it was happy with the work ALPINE HELICOPTERS was doing. Adds that he doesn’t believe there was ever any graft or corruption going on.

311: Says TIM WALLIS and his associates, even though they had exclusive rights, hunted the area very efficiently and proved they were masters at their trade.

317: Eventually, however, the HUNTING rights in the PARK were opened up. But by then, the animal numbers had been knocked down so much that although the price was good, you had to get quite a few animals to make it pay. Especially with the additional cost of helicopters, fuel and insurance.

328: Replies that sabotage did take place, both within the PARK (gives an example of a THOMPSON BROS. helicopter being shot at) and on the WAIAU airstrip (a hangar was the subject of arson, disabling two helicopters).

344: On the incidence of poaching says there was a lot of it. Mentions one culprit, TONY PAUL, who built a fairly large operation including four helicopters and thumbed his nose at authority. Adds that the airforce was dispatched unsuccessfully to the area to stop him.

354: Describes another occasion when TONY PAUL and an associate, GRANT LAYTON were shooting in the WAPITI area. They were coming out one night with an illegal load when the helicopter suffered a malfunction. Says TONY had survived three other crashes. On this occasion he was thrown out and as a result of the impact with water below, broke his neck.

365: Goes on to say the pilot survived the accident. He was found the next day. Both the PAUL company’s machines and other helicopter operators (legal and illegal) had been out looking for them. He’s not sure whether it was one of the legal operators or the illicit ones that found him. But when he was found, PAUL’S associates had to admit to what had been going on to the police.

379: Recalls that after the newspaper headlines on that incident, the whole thing scaled down. Says it had acted as a catalyst for the NATIONAL PARK BOARD to allow other operators in, a move that brought some stability to the industry.

363: Says this happened around the late 70s, around the time that MAX EVANS died in a tragic accident. (Gives some details later in the interview).

393: Mentions that with the amount of activity in the area, at one stage, before it was burned down, the WAIAU airstrip hangar was maintaining about 19 HUGHES helicopters. And there were about 20 choppers based in TE ANAU working on wild animal recovery.

397: Recounts that the schoolkids didn’t bother to look up when a chopper flew overhead, but they’d be out of their seats if a big truck went past.

404: Despite the intense activity, he says there were never any in-air collisions. Visibility from a chopper, he says, is very good. Once or twice there might have been a fright by getting too close. The accidents, he adds, were almost always caused by working too close to the ground or mechanical failure.

410: Says he can’t recall any air accidents being caused maliciously although there were certainly machines that were interfered with; but any tampering was located on the ground.

414: Recalls that one of the major changes that happened was the shift from MEAT HUNTING and bringing out carcasses to LIVE CAPTURE of DEER to stock farms.

419: Tape 2 Side B ends

Tape 3 Side A starts

002: Opens continuing discussion on LIVE CAPTURE, saying the HUNTERS would concentrate on the young DEER. Yearling females and adult females, he says, commanded very good prices rather than the male species.

020: Says the prices escalated to about $3000 for one live HIND. Most were sold “off the back of a helicopter” within days by the operator to a DEER FARMER, so there were great profits to be made at that time.

037: Adds that the situation didn’t last too long, just two or three years. In that time there were thousands and thousands of LIVE DEER taken, but he adds, at the cost of the lives of quite a few crewmen, pilots and aircraft.

044: Agrees that it was a much more dangerous occupation. The technique, he says, started with shooters leaping from the helicopter to BULLDOG a DEER, (grab it as it ran for cover). In open country, it was very dangerous to try to BULLDOG them because of the speed at which they could run.

058: The next step, he says, was that the crew started to use a 15ft-long pole with a tranquillizer dart on its tip. Goes without saying it was not the easiest thing to use, especially in trying to avoid it touching the helicopter blades.

066: The pilot would fly within feet of the DEER, not yards, and the crewman would jab the tip of the pole into its rump, wait until the drug had taken effect, then tie it up and cart it out.

072: Says this method was more successful in the open country - NOKOMAI STATION and other CENTRAL OTAGO properties - rather than FIORDLAND.

082: Mentions that after the poles, tranquilizer guns were introduced. One that proved quite popular was a MURDOCH, invented by a man from TIMARU and was a single-barrelled type.

093: Then a double-barrelled type was invented, one barrel emitting a tranquilizer dart, the other a radio-signal dart, so that the drugged DEER could be traced by the helicopter. It meant several could be darted in one foray and then picked up after locating them by radio signal.

104: But, there was still a problem if only one of the darts hit, so the next development was to incorporate the radio-signal in a long cylindrical dart that had the tranquilizer at the tip - one projectile doing two jobs.

118: States there was another method which used a pistol fitted with a projectile and two electrodes on small wires which led to a fishing reel mounted on the side of the helicopter. The SHOOTER would hang on to the side of the machine, fire the hand-held pistol and as the projectile pierced the DEER’S skin. the PILOT would flick a switch, activating the electrodes which would STUN the animal.

131: Once the DEER was down, the SHOOTER could tie it up and away they went.

134: Recalls flying with RICHARD HAYES (SOUTHERN LAKES HELICOPTERS) when he worked for ALPINE HELICOPTERS. Says they were in the MURCHISON MOUNTAINS and the WAPITI area on a LIVE CAPTURE trip. Describes flying so low that the SKIDS would actually bump on the ground – they’d be so close that if they hit a rock, the machine would lurch and then regain control. Says that wasn’t unusual.

145: A further development, he continues, was developed on the WEST COAST. It was a crude but effective NET GUN. Describes it as a TWO-GALLON PETROL TIN, mounted on the action of a .303 rifle with four barrels that fired weights which dragged a net out to blanket the DEER.

155: States eventually this method was fine-tuned.

160: Recalls that even so, all sorts of things happened. Sometimes the NET GUNS fired over the DEER heads and then trailed along behind them like a veil. Then the crew would try to leap on to the NET in the hope of capturing the DEER, leading to a lot of broken legs, bruises, and other injuries for the crew.

169: Soon, however, the SHOOTER learned to fire the NETS well over the target’s head so that it ran into it, rolled up and the crew would leap out and untangle it first before tying it up.

186: Tells of another roundup with RICHARD HAYES in the MURCHISONS and someone called ‘TOOTHPICK’ when they caught fourteen DEER before nine in the morning using this method. And that all the animals survived.

202: Responding to question, agrees that due to the success of the HELICOPTER HUNTERS, the number of DEER was decimated in just a few years. Adds that the animals were reproducing on the DEER FARMS. So instead of paying $3000 for a captured HIND, you could pay $1000 for a FARM produced one.

226: Affirms that in the later years of working for the FOREST SERVICE, he became more involved in checking on the HELICOPTER OPERATORS following the introduction of the WILD ANIMAL CONTROL ACT OF 1977 which gave FS staff the power to instantly request a look at the pilots’ daily flight record and information on where h/she had taken DEER.

238: In addition, says the machines had to be painted with a large code letter inside a circle about one metre in diameter so they could be seen at a distance. Also different areas had different colours and some letters weren’t used because they could be easily tampered with. e.g; the letter E could be made to look like an F.

252: Mentions some pilots used artistic licence. One in particular had been allocated a V and painted PLAYBOY bunny ears on the V on one side of his machine and on the other he painted it displaying the international fingers code for ‘Up Yours’. That was his signal (laughs).

284: Responding to question, says that between the 60s and 80s there were fewer HUNTERS employed by the FOREST SERVICE but more FIELD OFFICERS. There were also more trainees and junior RANGERS.

289: Mentions that the senior staff involved in HELICOPTER monitoring had to go through intensive law enforcement compliance training because the WILD ANIMAL CONTROL ACT was very powerful.

292: States that it gave the trained staff the power to enter the PILOT’S HANGAR and seize any suspected contraband. Adds that he’s seized HELICOPTERS worth a quarter of a million dollars.

303: Says the FS operations changed from 100% wild animal control to re-vegetation of eroded land to recreational development of places such as MAVORA LAKES, which wasn’t part of the NATIONAL PARK structure. It was a STATE FOREST area and the FS was responsible for its maintenance and protection.

314: Says the FS cut tracks through SNOWDON FOREST for recreational use. And through PYKE FOREST.

319: Replies that at a local level the FS staff worked well alongside NP staff and LANDS & SURVEY staff. Mentions that at a regional or national level there was perhaps less cooperation.

327: Citing as an example says L&S was responsible for the open country at MAVORA but it didn’t do anything with it. Meanwhile the forest area, as part of SNOWDON FOREST was administered by the FS and it carried out quite a bit of work.

330: Says the FS built a bridge across the river that connects the two LAKES, out in the open country. It was there for two years, he says, adding that one day an officer for L&S was going through the area, saw the bridge on his department’s land and ordered it to be taken down.

338: To complete this story, says that two or three years later, when the FS and the Parks and Reserves sector of L&S formed a committee to jointly run the development of the MAVORA area, they built another bridge not far from where the first one had been constructed.

343: Mentions taking over as RANGER-IN-CHARGE at TE ANAU from MAX EVANS who died in an accident involving a CESSNA 185 at the HOLLYFORD AIRSTRIP in DECEMBER 1976. Says MAX had jumped out of the plane before the pilot had reached a stop and could switch the engine off. He’d then got caught up the rotating propellers and was killed instantly.

367: Describes it as one of the worst days in his life, especially having to tell MAX’S widow, JOAN.

379: Responding to question, says there were a lot of accidents involving all aircraft then not only helicopters.

392: Says he knew just about all of the people who were killed or injured – had flown with them, been shooting with them, socialised with them.

396: Mentions in particular JIM KANE who worked for BILL BLACK whose helicopter was kept in his backyard at GUNN STREET, which meant he’d see them before they went off and when they returned from DEER HUNTING trips into the SOUNDS. Says he was involved in the SEARCH and RESCUE for JIM and helped recover the body from the wreckage of his downed helicopter.

402: Affirms that accident occurred in the late 1980s in the SOUTHERN FIORDS. Says it was one of a number that happened in close sequence.

407: Segues into discussing his work with SEARCH and RESCUE which he says was a natural progression from his early years working with FS.

414: Adds that he’s always been keen on flying, spending weekends with aircraft-owing friends who would fly into remote areas for DEER SHOOTING. His interest was also helped by having BILL BLACK’S helicopter stationed in his back yard.

Tape 3 Side A ends

Tape 3 Side B starts

002: Continues discussion on his SEARCH and RESCUE work. Says it all began in 1960 when he took part in a WILD ANIMAL HUNTING expedition south of HAAST where DEER numbers had reached almost plague proportions. About 25 private and 10 government HUNTERS were involved, including GORE man, JOE MCDUNNOUGH, who with a couple of others had been given a block at the TE NGAHI VALLEY.

031: Goes on to say that JOE had told his companions he was keen to shoot a CHAMOIS so he climbed much higher than they did. When they returned at the end of the day, he didn’t turn up.

044: Other hunting parties, he says, were all brought together and a SEARCH started.

060: On the 13th day, one of the SEARCHERS went down a steep gorge and smelt something. He found JOE’S body behind a large rock. Says there was a co-incidence in it being the 13th day of the month, there were 13 people out looking for him and the search had been going for 13 days.

070: Recalls he and two others opted to stay with the body and tried keeping it cold while the remaining party walked out. It was two or three days before help came and during that time they would collect snow morning and night and pack it round the body (remembering this was in JANUARY).

083: Eventually, the only helicopter available in the SOUTH ISLAND (it was 1960) arrived and took the body out. “Then we had to walk out, they didn’t fly us out…” he laughs.

093: From that point on, he says, his involvement in SEARCH and RESCUE hasn’t stopped although he takes more of an advisory role than a physical one these days.

102: Replying to question on the emotional commitment the job demands, talks again about the time he was called out to the HELICOPTER crash involving his friend, JIM KANE.

114: Mentions that around the accident site, everything was destroyed by the fire caused by the impact. Says that JIM had lived for a short time, spoken to his crewman who’d managed to get down the mountain after the crash (he wasn’t on board at the time). He’d made JIM as comfortable as he could before the actual moment of death.

121: Says the crewman was BARRY GUISE, who later became a PILOT and lost his own life in an air accident only a couple of years ago.

127: Explains that after recovering JIM’S body, he then accompanied the local policeman and doctor to advise the victim’s wife, BARBARA what happened.

135: Adds it was only one of a number of FATALS involving people he knew well. Mentions COLIN YEATES who also lost his life in a HELICOPTER accident.

163: Responding to question, says that in such instances, he switches off and treats the victims with as much dignity as if they were alive. Says he talked away to JIM while trying to prepare his body for the airlift out.

174: Admits that afterwards, he has to sit down and talk it through with ALOMA, saying that for people who do SEARCH and RESCUE there’s a grieving process to go through too.

179: Considers the toughest ones are when the victim is young, an example being a car crash he attended with the FIRE BRIGADE when his own children were small. In the crash, a toddler had been killed reminding him of his youngest son.

187: Describes taking the body over to the ambulance and how it affected him so badly that he really cracked when he got home.

191: Adds another case when he and ALOMA were approaching the GORGE HILL and had come upon a triple fatality car crash involving two big trucks. In one truck, there was a body hanging on the doorpost, and on what was left of the seat was a child still gasping for life. He’d tried to keep the child alive, but as he carried him, he could see the body was broken to pieces inside.

211: Going on with this story, he says after covering the child’s body, he looked up the road and saw what he thought was a bundle of old clothes. As he got closer, he realised it was the body of a man in old blue overalls.

216: Of course, says one of the first things he did was call up the FOREST SERVICE office to alert the emergency teams to the accident. They arrived about fifteen minutes later.

227: Responding to question, says he continues to this type of work because he feels that someone has to and he’s equipped to act and react appropriately.

238: Says the type of skills required include self-reliance, confidence, being physically capable.

247: Moving on to his being part of the TE ANAU FIRE BRIGADE, says he first got involved in 1973. And it was partly because the FS had provided them with rural fire-fighting equipment – pumps, hoses and hand tools.

255: Says it was during a discussion with GEORGE RADFORD, a founding member of the TAFB, who persuaded him to join up. Recalls saying he’d give it a year, which became twenty years.

273: Mentions having been made a LIFE HONORARY member of the FIRE BRIGADE when he resigned.

287: Talks about BRIGADE work including everything from fires in the CAVES CHALET to attending aircraft accidents in the WAIAU STRIP and in the WAIAU RIVER. Also fires from simple chimney blazes to large accommodation blocks as well as motor vehicle accidents which if they happen on the MILFORD ROAD can develop into 16-day forest fires.

296: Laughs at how even now, when the alarm goes he still twitches, gets up and wonders if he should be there.

300: As a voluntary organisation, says the FIRE BRIGADE is funded by the FIRE SERVICES COMMISSION which allocates money to brigades around the country.

311: Discussion quickly moves back to his FOREST SERVICE days and in particular, 1987 when the department amalgamated with other government bodies. Explains FS ENVIRONMENT staff were working closely with those from the WILDLIFE DIVISION of the DIA as well as staff from L&S NATIONAL PARKS DIVISION. All were doing closely associated work but with different funding bodies and all three using different boats, helicopters etc.

335: So they were amalgamated under the one body, the DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION which became operative from April 1st 1987.

336: Says his first official appointment with DOC was as SENIOR CONSERVATION OFFICER. The senior job was known as DISTRICT CONSERVATOR (TERRY PELLET). The district was called TAKITIMU which covered FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK, the TAKITIMUS, SNOWDON, EYRE and PYKE.

348: Recalls his new title essentially meant he continued doing all the jobs he’d already been doing for the FOREST SERVICE. Adds he was also roped in to doing other tasks such as hut wardenning and behind-the-counter work, all of which he enjoyed.

356: States he continued to work for DOC until he RETIRED in 2002.

360: During that time, says he remembers a number of colleagues. ROSS KERR springs to mind, someone he says he even worked with in the FS and who’s still at DOC. Others include JOHN TROTTER, JOHN WARD (who only worked for the NP), DAVE WILSON, (also a former FS worker who became AREA MANAGER).

375: Mentions some of the women he also worked with, including MARGARET DENNY (another former NP worker).

377: Explains that in the FS days, TE ANAU was considered a good place to train staff in environmental aspects because of the variety of work – high country, recreational development, forest work, fire control.

395: Says the number of DOC staff based at TE ANAU amounts to about 80 permanent and between 40 and 60 seasonal workers. Across the SOUTHLAND CONSERVANCY there may be up to 400 employees.

399: Adds that there are others working for DOC, like himself, on a CONSULTANCY basis.

402: Agrees that DOC is an agency which wins either praise or condemnation from the public and believes that this could be because the work it does is based on policy. In some cases, he says, this involves preserving things and therefore restricting development for commercial gain, to control populations of animals that people see as an asset because they like to hunt them. At the same time, he says, it aims to protect species that may otherwise be considered pests (e.g.; black shags because they take trout).

Tape 3 Side 2 ends

Tape 4 Side 1 starts

001: Opens with explanation that just after he retired from DOC, he was invited by the new area manager to take a six-month long contract to work for the organisation on an as-required basis, particularly with law-enforcement and compliance and to assist with fire-safety training. Adds he has recently been given a two-year contract.

022: Says he also helps out with patrols in the MAVORA area and assists crew on the DOC-owned vessel, the Renown.

030: Discussing his work commitments and family life, mentions he and ALOMA had three SONS - one is deceased. Considers now that perhaps his work cut into the time he could have spent with his family.

037: Believes, though, that some of the jobs required a high-level of commitment, eg. one of the first major fires he helped tackle lasted fourteen days in the GREENSTONE VALLEY. A similar incident, lasting sixteen days, took him up to the DINGLE FOREST for that length of time.

052: Adds that going out on SEARCH and RESCUE operations can be quite hazardous, and believes that his family must have worried about his safety – whether he would return unharmed.

061: Responding to question says ALOMA through the years has been very tolerant and understanding of his wish to continue doing this type of work. Says they have a good marriage and it’s just been a way of life.

070: Considers the work for him has been tapering off, and while he denies any great need to work, it’s an occupation he appreciates because it takes him into places he loves and enjoys.

082: On the subject of living in TE ANAU for so long and the changes he’s seen, says when he first arrived it was a quiet little town. Says it had a seasonal influx of visitors, mainly to privately-owned cribs during the holidays. There weren’t many tourists in the town, not till the FIORDLAND HOTEL was built (in the 1960s).

097: Says there were far fewer people on the tracks and in the district overall.

104: Affirms his CHILDREN went to school in TE ANAU, from KINDERGARTEN up.

115: Mentions that while two of the three BOYS went on to FIORDLAND COLLEGE, the eldest NICHOLAS who has an intellectual impairment and a congenital heart condition, went on to TWEEDSMUIR INTERMEDIATE in INVERCARGILL.

128: Explains that NICHOLAS now works at one of the city retail warehouses and lives in a CCS home, returning to TE ANAU every second weekend or so.

139: Talks about the middle son, BRETT, who died at the age of 20. Describes what happened and the effect of his sudden death on the family.

156: Responding to question, says that contrary to what people told him “you don’t ever get over it”.

163: Adds other thoughts that he and ALOMA have reflected upon over the years since.

169: Says he the whole episode has created greater closeness between himself and ALOMA and has made them extra vigilant about their care for the other two BOYS. Mentions that the younger son, RHYS, was with his brother when the incident happened – something which makes them extra careful in their dealings with him.

178: States that RHYS is now in PERTH, W.A., is a trained chef and has worked in many countries. But he’s now changing direction and is keen to work outdoors, currently in the construction industry.

183: Recalls when the BOYS were younger they took up similar interests as he did as a youth, such as HUNTING and the OUTDOORS.

211: On living in TE ANAU says it’s a place he loves, the mountains, forests, the lake. Describes it as a great community, with good schools, medical centre, fire brigade etc.

224: Admits that he and ALOMA don’t know very many people in TE ANAU because they’re not big socialites. But their friends, he says, are important to them.

Interview ends

Tape 4 Side 1 ends